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I remember when the Mythbusters tested Chinese Water Torture. It was effective, but left no lasting physical harm. I also know several people who consider “torture” to be a form of pleasurable intimacy (within strict guidelines that are set up beforehand). There can be no real definition of torture because there are too many varying opinions. It was like the Addams Family movie.

“Whips. Chains. Hot Branding Irons……..”

“Later dear…”

Personally, I consider Spongebob and Barney the Dinosaur to be cruel and unusual punishment, but then, i’m weird that way.

I used to be a huge fan of Barney. It was that awful. There was this one kid that they kept in the cast until he was way too old to be hanging around with a pretend dinosaur. When he grows up, he’s going to look back on that and either go gay or put a bullet in his head.

LOL. I used to tell my friends who had barney-aflicted children that the best antidote to Barney was “Jurassic Park”. Let them see hte T-Rex and tell them “Ooo, Barney grew up!”

Super-de-duper!

[…] makes a fine distinction: Torture is any experience so horrible that no-one would consider trying it out simply for the […]

Holy SHIT there’s an amazing thunderstorm rolling through Rhode Island right now! All us cubicle-monkeys pressed our noses to the glass and watched this monster roll up. Sixy mile an hour winds, rain, hail.

The lights keep sagging. I’d better hit Post and go save some stuff…

Damn, I’m jealous. We haven’t has a pisser of a storm like that around her in god knows how long………

I love it when Mama Nature does that.

Perfect.

Sometimes I get tense from an inability to put to words a very important thought. I had been feeling that way about the torture debate and now I have it. The relief is spectacular.

There are about a hundred other similar thoughts but let’s deal with one at a time.

Depends on who is getting the ‘treatment’ as to what torture would be. Bad guys grab me….the fear of that as a regular ‘Jo-ette’, is torture. Tie me down…torture. Living under a democrat utopia…torture. Definitely do not want to try it out.

The dude and his minions who masterminded 9/11 which brought on the agonizing deaths and torturous choice between jumping or roasting to your death of 3000 innocents…..waterboarding is too good for them. F*ck them and the demonic death cult they belong to. Like the rabid dogs they are, let them eat a bullet.

I know what you mean, MP. I have a whole list of ideas that I can’t quite articulate, and it drives me nuts…like having an itch inside my ear.

Also per the article…

Torture is any experience so horrible that it is done to some U.S. soldiers as a routine form of training.

I got the wall locker treatment in my day. Now that one is interesting. They put you in a wall locker buried in the ground and slowly fill it with water. You have to arch your back to just keep your nostrils out of the water.

Oof! I’m getting the vapors just thinking of that, Allen.

Sometimes that itch in the ear is so frustrating as to almost draw me completely away from politics. I attempt to start explaining the unifying disorder at the core of modern leftism (because I know for a fact it is one overriding disorder of thought) and my teeth start to grate as I get close but win no cigar.

As a computer programmer, this happens to me a lot when I push my mind toward a task that won’t yield. I have often given myself physical pain and disorientation.

So, if anyone would like to help narrow down the unifying straing of damaged thinking that leads to leftism, I’d like to know.

I feel strongly that if that thought could be articulated, it could be used to convince many of them how wrong they are.

Call me an optimist.

Things that can’t possibly be torture because I *paid* for them and nobody got arrested:
-wisdom teeth extracted (3. Last one I paid extra for the good drugs. Wise decision. I didn’t for the first two.)
-Routine Yearly Gynecological Exam. (What do they want to know??? I’ll tell them if they would just stop! )
-Routine Yearly Mammogram. Ow ow ow ow….and COLD to boot.

Bad Cat. Is it safe?

Whirr, whirr.

All of my wisdom is gone (sniff!) but they did let me keep the last tooth. It has amazing long, curvy roots. I polished it and keep it in my Cabinet of Curiosities (yes, I really have one) in case of emergency.

I nose how it goes, BC. They had to break each of mine into 4 pieces each to get them out, because the roots were twisted around the nerve. Add a major case of dry socket to that and you have a sure plan for a party…… 🙁

Happiest day of my life, the day I had my wisdom teeth out. Intravenous Valium and Demerol mixed. Oh, Jesus, it was wonderful to be alive. I wanted to go back every day until I had exhausted my supply of teeth.

That really is the Philosopher’s Stone, MP — the ultimate liberal descriptor. I actually don’t think it’s possible today. When I was a kid, I think there was a coherent liberal philosophy; now it has fragmented into a bunch of unrelated (and sometimes conflicting) constituencies. The various identity groups, unions and ’60s leftovers.

Here’s a part of the thing, though: it doesn’t matter what happens, it matters what your intentions were. That explains how they can get behind — and STAY behind — things like welfare which demonstrably hurt the people they’re intended to help.

Weasel, the instructors had far worse things done to them for real. I think they had an average time of 4 years in a POW camp.

I lurve IV painkillers, even when my stupid veins dodge and weave to avoid the needle and I end up looking like a junkie afterwards. Wisdom teeth nos. 1 and 2 were pretty much done by plier. I vividly recall the dentist bracing his knee against the chair to get leverage, and wondering if my jaw was going to get pulled off. Again, all *completely legal* and Amnesty International never returned my calls.

I like the definition. But I still don’t give a shit what they did or do to KSM to get him to talk. I’m pretty sure a blowtorch and a pair of pliers meets the definition of “torture”. On that bastard? Noprob.

MP it’s really rather straightforward. Here’s a loop for you that might help.

1. Assign an initial premise and back it up with the rigorous use of “critical thinking.”

2. Ignore any and all observed results.

3. Ignore anyone who points out said results and belittle them for lack of critical thinking.

4. Blame failure due to underfunding.

5. Reassert initial premise and GOTO 2.

[…] Stoaty, thanks to Hitch’s article, finally finds a definition of “torture” that is precise enough that His Majesty can fully endorse it. To wit: Torture is any experience so horrible that no-one would consider trying it out simply for […]

Whoa! A Rottweiler link!

Actually, I think that the anti-torture crowd is a little distracted right now. Starbucks has announced the closure of 600+ stores nationwide. The wailing and mourning is audible all the way out here in Colorado…….

I was going to link to this on DPUD too… it is just totally perfect.

As for the liberal mindset, I think you hit on a bit part of my goal by suggesting that they have no internally consistent philosophy. If only there were a way to demonstrate how completely illogical it all is…

unfortunately, one of their tenets is that every case is different and everything is a gray area and nobody can really “know” anything.

By its very nature it resists the intrusion of reason.

Those soviets really designed a perfectly destructive mindset.

Scubafreak: LOL!

I’m not the right person to discuss torture with. Because I tend to utilitarianism when it comes to national security, I really don’t see the problem with torture. We should do whatever we need to, no matter what it is, to protect our national security.

I leave the debate to you more moral people.

Allen’s got a good take there. Figure out on paper how something is likely to work. Try it in the real world. When it doesn’t work as you thought, declare that it wasn’t done right, or it needs more funding, or it was sabotaged by reactionaries.

And they call this science, because it involves planning and experimentation.

I have a completely off-topic for you smart and principled people: due to Obama’s skin color, is there a difference between calling Bush a chip and calling Obama a chimp?

[…] http://sweasel.com/archives/1269 […]

It’s simply the wrong place to go, Musli. It’s like poking fun at McCain’s prisoner of war status: it’s a stupid spot to try and stick a fork.

It was dumb to compare Bush to a monkey. But because of our long iconographic history of comparing Africans to monkeys, it’s nuclear stupid to do it with Obama. It isn’t his color, it’s his ancestry.

And our past.

[…] I’m gonna go with the Weasel on this […]

Yes, weasie, I have to admit, he IS a FLAMING Homo-Sapiens…..

(then again, so am I)

I’ve been interested in wisdom tooth extraction since I read about it online somewhere (I don’t know anyone who’s had them extracted) and learned that they feed you all sorts of opium derivatives. A lot of the testimonials generally go something like, ‘So I went to have my wisdom teeth yanked and they gave me a jab and then I turned to the nurse and said “So when does the procedure begin” and she giggled and said “It’s done” and I was like “Whoa” and then they gave me a fortnight’s supply of hydrocodone and told me to come back for a repeat prescription if I ran out and was still in pain.’

I wonder how many people become junkies from having wisdom teeth pulled? That smarmy one from Friends did, right? Taking them as a representation of the population (they’re pretty normal, apart from the one who used to be married to that acne-ridden, shit-eating monkey, Brad Pitt, so nobody would think he was queer), that’s – what – 17%? Holy shit. Next time I see someone scuffling out of the dentists holding a blood-soaked tissue-wad to their mouth, I’ll run them down in my car and shout, ‘It’s for your own good, you degenerate junkie’ over my shoulder.

Ohmigosh! Dave in Texas from Ace’s place and now See-Dubya from Michelle’s.

It just shows to go ya: I was embarrassed because I had nothin’ today 😉

Musli, anyone who did the chimp thing in regards to Obama would automatically be assumed to be a racist, I sure would assume they were. For the reasons Weasel mentions.

If you want to poke fun at Obama in a caricature like fashion, Alfred E. Neumann, “What me Worry” might be the way to go. He was naive, clueless, and had the big ears thing going for him.

No, Gibby, no — junkies are your friends. A little Papaver somniferum is all we ask, and we happily shuffle off this mortal coil, leaving you to your…wind turbines or organic chick peas or forced abortions or…whatever.

Yo-ho Yo-ho, the junkie’s death for me!

Weasel, here’s an opportunity fer ya. There is an open article on Uncyclopedia for “space weasels.”

http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Space_Otters

Jeeze, I didn’t get ANY good drugs when they did mine. Just a needle in the gums that felt like it was a foot or so long, and not nearly enough novicane.

The crunching, tugging and swearing while they sectioned and extracted the wisdoms was an eye opener, espscially when he had to plant his knee in my chest for leverage……..

As you’ve probably realized, it WASN’T a civilian dentist.

Linked you at Grapevine too, O Stoaty One! 🙂

Until my wisdom teeth hurt they’re staying in my dang head, I don’t care if they do point backwards.

And vallium is the one nice thing about having inner and outer ear infections in both ears. That’s the one and only time I’ve ever cried at work.

Mike! Mike at Cold Fury was the first! Dammit, I suck at these Academy Award speeches.

Thanks, all, for setting me straight.

Exceptionally fine observation and I’m spreading the word around 🙂

Weaz! I love it when The Wisdom Of Stoat is plastered all over the moronosphere in the morning. It feels … nifty!

Oh! And regarding scubafreak’s comment waaaay up at the top: I saw this at a friends house in the bathroom on the mirror:

Sticks and stones may break my bones
But whips and chains excite me.

Linked you at http://thecornfieldonline.com

McGoo, I swear sometimes I have a touch of discognitive anagramitis. When I read “Wisdom of Stoat” it got cross-translated to: The Wisdom of Toast.

Now, imagine the idea of “Toast Weasels.” Your toaster goes “pop” afore you know it you’ve got wild weasels running amok.

Which I suspect is the root for pop goes the weasel.

So… a white American won’t be able to get away with calling Obama a chimp.

Okies, how about a non-white, non-American, non-evolutionist not in America? Will that be alright?

Because not only does he look like a chimp, he’s as dangerous as they are (check out what *real* adult chimps are like). No offense to chimps. They’re just doing what they do best. Humans are supposed to try harder.

To paraphrase Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear, I’d really rather look at a baboon. Actually, at the backside of a baboon. Possibly said baboon’s ass would make a better President too.

I like your definition of torture, though, S Weasel. Although women do use depilatory strips on their legs…

/shudder
//the ladies have higher pain thresholds than this lily-livered yeller-bellied man
///although getting kicked in the balls twice in as many minutes is probably almost just as bad
////btw, how is anyone cool with letting a (possibly vengeful PMSy female) mouth full of teeth anywhere near their family jewels anyway? *That* might constitute cruel and unusual punishment…hmm, a thought for the Pentagon? 😉

Allen – that is strange. Having that pop into my noggin like that would have bothered me a bit. But it all ties together too neatly. Spooky.

God, I do love this site. There’s no other quite like it.

Links are like internet hugs

Because I tend to utilitarianism when it comes to national security, I really don’t see the problem with torture.

Me either so much. The coercion we use does not equate to the kind of torture the headchoppers, Vietcong, etc. use.
A little water boarding like Hitchens did – not the hose down the throat – is fine with me. Ticking time bomb scenario, all bets are off.

Speaking of wisdom teeth, I just got the novacaine. Twenty minutes wait to make sure all was numb, 30 seconds to pop each tooth out. Had one side done one week, the other, the next week. The pain after was just a dull ache, so didn’t even use Tylenol.

I see in the referenced article he writes ominously of the waiver he had to sign: “Water boarding is a potentially dangerous activity in which the participant can receive serious and permanent (physical, emotional and psychological) injuries and even death, including injuries and death due to the respiratory and neurological systems of the body.”

Wow, that sounds scary. Why, that’s almost as scary as the waiver I had to sign when my daughter took horseback riding lessons. Except in that case, they didn’t even bother warning about the namby-pamby “emotional” and “psychological” dangers. They went straight to serious physical injury, permanent crippling, and death.

Last time I took my kids to an amusement park they had warning signs on the roller coasters that they might cause disorientation, nausea, and spinal injuries. I’ll bet if the military took a group of Gitmo inmates to Six Flags we’d be hearing about how the rides are a form of torture.

Hey, there’s got to be a catchy You Tube video in that idea: Close up of Arab-looking people talking about how they were forced into machines that cause disorientation, nauseas, and spinal injuries, big build up of how they are being tortured, and then the camera pulls back to show they’re getting off a roller coaster.

[…] not to worry too much about Hitchens and the T-word; he ultimately redeemed himself by inspiring Stoaty to give it a new definition that was more to the Rottweiler’s liking, as well as my own. […]

[…] Definition of Torture If you want a good working definition of torture, go visit S. Weasel in all her stoaty […]

Anonymous, It’s a good thing you posted anonymously, or I’d have to send DCFS out to take your kids away, you torturer.

Sometimes it seems we are committed to just rolling over and letting Western Civilization end.

How about the definition:

Would you be willing to suffer through this or have a family member do this, if you knew thousands, if not more, innocent lives could be saved?

And is there serious evidence that the subject of the waterboarding is involved in such a threat and refuses to cooperate?

Then your answer should be yes.

If you are willing to, in battle shoot or shove your bayonette into some 19 year old, you shouldn’t get all faint over making hard choices like waterboarding

The wierd thing is that even Hitchens says essentially its torture but not really torture. As in the rack/pear/buts pulled out on a wheel, hot poker sort.

“Torture is any experience so horrible that no-one would consider trying it out simply for the purpose of writing a Vanity Fair article about what it’s like.”

Also, so horrible that no-one would ask for a second helping after catching his breath.

or have a family member do this, if you knew thousands, if not more, innocent lives could be saved?

I’d have a family member go through this without that condition.

Do I get to pick the family member?

Teh weasel is teh famous.

Teh fame is teh fleeting.

All glory is fleeting (holds a laurel wreath over your head)

Well, if I can keep a little of this wind at my tail, my thingiemeter is likely to hit 100K tomorrow or the next day. This pleases Weasel 🙂

I had all four wisdom teeth pulled in five minutes flat (novacaine only) by a hotshot Navy dentist (who I’m still looking for to return the favor). Had horrible pain for two weeks (the gave me six low-grade darvocet to take with me) to the point I couldn’t eat, and don’t even think about brushing or flossing.

So I go back and get a different dentist who scolds me for not brushing my teeth (“you stink!”) and then proceeds to use that water-drill to flush out the crap in my mouth (no drugs this time, since I’d been a bad boy, I guess). I’m sure the imprint of my grips are still embedded in teh arms of that cental chair.

About a week later, I was eating popcorn at my girlfriend’s house and thought i’d gotten a shell stuck in my gum. A toothpick flicked against it sent a bolt of pain all the way down to the soles of my feet and then back up again, pauisng to pucker my asshole and kick my direct objects each trip.

I got a pair of needlenosed pliers and grabbed aholt of the “shell” and jerked it out (and yes, the world went gray for a few moments). It was a half-inch long crescent-shaped tooth root. If I squinted, I could see the empty groove where the nerve had so very recently resided but which now lay throbbing and bare at the bottom of a gaping bloody hole in my jaw.

Sure wish I could remember that Navy dentist’s name. What with the internet being so useful ‘n informative ‘n all.

[…] S. Weasel defines torture.   [link] […]

Gotta love some military dentists. One of them tore open the corner of my mouth in his zeal to remove an abcessed tooth. After a lot of tugging and tearing of skin and the non-numbing properties of novocaine applied to an infection Mr. Dentist, D.D.S., then thought it might be a good idea to get an X-Ray.

Well, how about that? After breaking my tooth, tearing the corner of my mouth, and then taking an X-ray he discovers the root of this tooth is ball root and there’s no way in hell he is going to be able to pull that tooth. Take some Tylenol (!) he says, try not to get any food near the broken tooth, and we’ll see about getting you an appointment at Newport Naval Station hospital (Rhode Island connection there Stoaty, I was stationed at a radar site on Cape Cod) soon.

So about 8 or 9 days later, after my treatment by the dentist from Marathon Man, I go to Newport and first they try to anesthesize me with laughing gas but I’m not laughing. Then they gave me an IV with valium. I have no memory of what happened after that.

Sent me to the pharmacy for some Tylenol 3 and then back on duty the next day.

So what is it they did to KSM and Christopher Hitchens? Is that all? Fuck them pussies.

[…] addresses National Right to Life conference IMAO: Its Up to Me To Save the World S. Weasel: I am indebted to Christopher Hitchens Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiller: This Isn’t the Immediate Withdrawal that I Used to Know […]

[…] 4, 2008 S. Weasel Ever since we began this national conversation on torture and whether we ought to be in the […]

Fourth of July linkfest…

8. Finally: A definition of torture….

So if the government uses methods are so horrible that the press won’t show them to the public, then the government can deny that they’re torture. But if the press lives up to its responsibility by investigating, that ALSO means they’re not torture.

You can’t have it both fucking ways.

The SERE guys went easy on Hitchens because he’s a fat geezer and they didn’t want him to have a heart attack in the middle of the demonstration. If you want to see a full-on waterboarding check my web link.

[…] I see SWeasel finally is back at work. […]

Great Definition.

So if the government uses methods are so horrible that the press won’t show them to the public, then the government can deny that they’re torture. But if the press lives up to its responsibility by investigating, that ALSO means they’re not torture.

I’ll presume you’re not just a troll or an idiot and simply suggest you think about this a while. Is there not a few choices between “never cover anything” and “personally experience the event to write about it” or do you think that there is an absolute dichotomy between these two choices?

[…] article hit the Net. Responding to Hitchens, a popular blogger who goes by the name Weasel put up banner text reading: “Torture is any experience so horrible that no-one would consider trying it out […]

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There was a 1969 TV show, “The Name of the Game” featuring Tony Franciosa as Jeff Dillon, an investigative correspondent. In one episode, Dillon took on an assignment that involved going through some kind of special forces training to resist torture. He was “kidnapped” and put in a prison camp, subjected to all sorts of unpleasantness short of actual bodily harm.

Can’t believe modern journalists would bother to get their hair mussed.